quote:

Originally posted by bill voss

BT, now c’mon. You don’t OWN a car in SF, and I wasn’t always an out of towner. While I might agree that the GGB is the least screwed up of the 5 bridges, that’s faint praise indeed. I still like the ferry idea, because it’s a wonderful ride into the city from Sausalito or Larkspur.
http://www.goldengateferry.org/schedules/
besides, they might enjoy Marin, which has it’s own ambiance.

I don’t own a car in SF. I own a Honda Elite 250 scooter and I drive it all over town (except usually I take the bus to Union Sq or the Financial Dsitrict and the cable car to Chinatown). I wouldn’t drive it on the freeways I mentioned even though it’s freeway-legal.

I like the ferry idea too. I didn’t say rachel should drive into town. Parking in Sausalito or Larkspur and taking the ferry to the Ferry Building would be a great way to begin a visit to the City. I just said the traffic isn’t as scary as many people say it is and fear of it should not be the reason to avoid driving into town. Fear of the PARKING situation, though, is a very good reason as is the fun and convenience of the ferry.

quote:

Originally posted by BT

quote:

Originally posted by bill voss

Traffic is horrendous in SF proper, and bridge tolls will give you sticker shock.

You know, I really don’t understand why out-of-towners say that. The worst traffic in the Bay Area is on US 101 South down the peninsula in San Mateo county and on I-80 through the Richmond area of Contra Costa County through Berkeley across the Bay Bridge (which includes much of the area you would have to traverse crossing the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge to the East Bay) and south on 80/101 through the City. And the stretch of 101 North through San Rafael and on up to Novato, including the western approach to the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge, is no piece of cake either. I hate driving those stretches. But 101 from Mill Valley south to the Golden Gate and San Francisco, if you avoid rush hour, is no problem and I think driving in the City is a piece of cake in comparison. Now I am NOT talking about the heart of the Financial District, Union Square or Chinatown. But in the rest of the City it’s no problem; less frustrating to me than driving around Tucson. The traffic keeps moving by and large (no "parking lot" phenomenon as on the stretches of freeway I mentioned) and you rarely have to wait more than one light change to get through an intersection (in Tucson, 2 or 3 is common). What IS difficult in San Francisco is PARKING. That’s why I recommend that people wanting to sightsee in the City simply park somewhere (coming from Marin, perhaps somewhere in the Marina District or else maybe just make a right off Lombard onto Gough and drive a couple miles–up and over Pacific Heights–to the Performing Arts Garage on Grove St. in Civic Center and park there) then do their sightseeing (or dining) by cab and/or public transportation.

BT, now c’mon. You don’t OWN a car in SF, and I wasn’t always an out of towner. While I might agree that the GGB is the least screwed up of the 5 bridges, that’s faint praise indeed. I still like the ferry idea, because it’s a wonderful ride into the city from Sausalito or Larkspur.
http://www.goldengateferry.org/schedules/
besides, they might enjoy Marin, which has it’s own ambiance.

quote:

Originally posted by fpczyz

quote:

BT Posted – 07/17/2005 : 15:26:33 I have made it my lifes work to make sure tourists know there is a big city out there beyond Fisherman’s Wharf which is, after all, a tourist trap

Right! And if tourists visit Paris stay away from the Eiffel tower, in New York don’t bother visiting the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty. Big Ben and Buckingham Palace in London is a waist of time. Visiting Egypt for the first time? stay away from the Pyramids they’ll only try to sell you a "T" shirt, The Grand Canyon ha! another joke. And for Gods sake stay away from the "Strip" while in Las Vegas. The French quarter in New Orleans another money garbing tourist trap the same as when visiting Baltimore please don’t eat any "crab cakes" cuz that is what all the tourist do…………. same with Philly cheese steaks … don’t even go into Philadelphia every body does that…. And ooh did I mention Fisherman’s Wharf in SF? ……………..
BT old ship mate let the tourist be tourist…..it’s what they do best…………… First time visitors to San Francisco MUST walk through Fisherman’s Wharf. Have a crab cocktail, drink an Irish coffee at the BV, a chocolate bar at Ghirardelli’s………… and ride a cable car if the line isn’t to long.
All your recommendations are awesome for there next trip………….. I don’t think they’ll want to do Fisherman’s Wharf again, but then again maybe they do.

http://www.inetours.com/Pages/SFNbrhds/Fishermans_Wharf.html

http://www.ghirardellisq.com/ghirardellisq/

Oh we have been around this merry go round many times. But here we go again. The Eiffel Tower is a genuine archetectural wonder, Big Ben graces the place where Parliament still meets, the Queen still lives in Buckingham Palace, the grand Canyon hasn’t gotten any less grand and crab cakes still contain real crab (at least they do in Baltimore). But there are precious few fishermen left on Fishermen’s Wharf and those that are are on the edge of packing it in. I’ll grant the crab cocktails can be enjoyable–they, a few restaurants in the area (In N Out, maybe the new Boudin Bistro) and the sea lions at Pier 39 are about the only reasons to go there, though. The rest is pure, unadulterated tourist trap–as if they told the Queen to go live at Windsor and installed a wax museum in Buckingham Palace, complete with multiple souvenir shops.

The best ride to and from the Wharf these days, if you MUST go there, is not the cable car but the F-Market trolley (I love the orange cars from Milan) along the Embarcadero–and it runs right past the new Ferry Building food hall which should be a lot more interesting to foodaholics (or Roadfooders) than anything on Fishermen’s Wharf. I love riding the cable cars myself, but I hate standing in endless lines, so I ride the California St line over Nob Hill–no waiting (because the tourists don’t seem to know about it)–which just happens to be a convenient way for me to get downtown or to Chinatown and it would be a convenient way for a tourist to get from the Ferry Building (or the terminus of the Sausalito Ferry) to Chinatown or the top of Nob Hill.

PS: Ghirardelli Sq isn’t at Fisherman’s Wharf though the distance between them is walkable and I endorse the chocolate even though I buy mine at Safeway. The Buena Vista is worth checking out but I wouldn’t bother if the crowd is too big–lots of places will make you an Irish Coffee: Try The Irish Bank http://www.theirishbank.com/ .

[,20,150786.008,1,20349,69.3.235.20
150793,150786,150786,2005-07-17 19:30:09,RE: San Francisco/Mill Valley CA”

quote:

BT Posted – 07/17/2005 : 15:26:33 I have made it my lifes work to make sure tourists know there is a big city out there beyond Fisherman’s Wharf which is, after all, a tourist trap

Right! And if tourists visit Paris stay away from the Eiffel tower, in New York don’t bother visiting the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty. Big Ben and Buckingham Palace in London is a waist of time. Visiting Egypt for the first time? stay away from the Pyramids they’ll only try to sell you a "T" shirt, The Grand Canyon ha! another joke. And for Gods sake stay away from the "Strip" while in Las Vegas. The French quarter in New Orleans another money garbing tourist trap the same as when visiting Baltimore please don’t eat any "crab cakes" cuz that is what all the tourist do…………. same with Philly cheese steaks … don’t even go into Philadelphia every body does that…. And ooh did I mention Fisherman’s Wharf in SF? ……………..
BT old ship mate let the tourist be tourist…..it’s what they do best…………… First time visitors to San Francisco MUST walk through Fisherman’s Wharf. Have a crab cocktail, drink an Irish coffee at the BV, a chocolate bar at Ghirardelli’s………… and ride a cable car if the line isn’t to long.
All your recommendations are awesome for there next trip………….. I don’t think they’ll want to do Fisherman’s Wharf again, but then again maybe they do.

http://www.inetours.com/Pages/SFNbrhds/Fishermans_Wharf.html

http://www.ghirardellisq.com/ghirardellisq/

Rachel, the hardest thing to find in the bay area is "Good old American food". You can find almost any ethnic variation.
My sightseeing advice consists of Muir woods, Tennessee Beach, over Mt. Tam to do
Stinson Beach, Tomales Bay and on up to Olema and the Inn, then cut back to San Rafael. It’s world class, and doable in 1/2 a day.
The east bay-Albany, Berkekey, and North Oakland are accessible over the Richmond San Rafael Bridge. Worth a day trip. Traffic is horrendous in SF proper, and bridge tolls will give you sticker shock.
Just read about these twin places in Larkspur too. Looks like it’s up your alley.
http://bunrab.com/yummychow/Reviews/SFReviewsFrameset.html?PiccoPizzeriaReview.html
lhttp://bunrab.com/yummychow/Reviews/SFReviewsFrameset.html?PiccoReview.html

PS: If you have a choice as to when to come, delay the trip until September (as close to October as possible). The best weather all year is usually late September, early October: warm, sunny, fog-free on the coast. If you do come in August, bring a jacket. Mill Valley is warm enough, but if you plan to come to San Francisco (and I hope you will–just park somewhere and take cabs to your destination because it’s geographically a small place, 7 miles square but the part you’ll care about is much smaller) you’ll find the wind howling and the fog bank pouring in by 4 PM most days. And anywhere along the ocean it’ll be similar.

Oh, and give the kid a bigger allowance–he deserves a chance to get out and explore. It’ll be a better education than anything they teach him in school (take my word for it).[:o)][:o)]

Marin County has some of the highest priced homes and highest incomes in America. The county average for both is pretty much always at or very near the top in both categories. And it is the home/birth place of both the hot tub and the sneered-at "wine and brie" culture. That said, a big reason it is so pricey is because they have successfully put so much of the county off-limits to developers leaving lots and lots of beautiful open space with rolling hills (brown in summer, green in winter) with groves of oaks, a rugged coastline, killer views of both San Francisco Bay and the Pacific as well as, of course the Golden Gate whose eponymous bridge connects Marin to San Francisco.

Bill is right that the priciest parts of the county are toward the south end because that’s where you have the shortest commutes to San Francisco. Belvedere (an island a bit off the shore of Tiburon) is perhaps the top end. Ross, Tiburon itself, Sausalito and even Mill Valley, which used to be a middle class suburb, are now the home of some very rich people and businesses, including resturants, that cater to them. San Rafael is the county seat and the largest town in the county and is home to some of the poorest (relatively speaking–there is even ssome public housing there) residents. So it has some of the less expensive and most interesting places to eat. Corte Madera isn’t poor by any means but it does have a lot of places to shop and eat.

All of that said, if you are looking for inexpensive places to eat and can’t find them nearby to your son’s school (he should know what’s there better than any of us–but here’s a resource http://bridge.webs.innerhost.com/where_to_eat.htm ), I’d say head SOUTH across the bridge, not north. San Francisco is, after all, a city full of rich, still some middle class and poor people. And lots and lots and lots (over 3000) of family run ethnic restaurants that are very reasonably priced. I eat out all the time for under $20. Mexican and Chinese tend to be the cheapest other than fast food. Italian, Thai and Japanese are a bit more.

For burgers, you don’t really have to leave Marin because there’s an In N Out in Mill Valley but surely your son knows that.

But back to the City for the rest. The Mission District is chock-a-block with Mexican places but I’ll suggest Don Ramone’s http://donramons.citysearch.com/ as being in a not-too-scary-to-non-natives hood and offering good food in a pleasant environment.

For Chinese, I’d consider going to Yank Sing http://www.yanksing.com/ for lunch or brunch (avoid the noon to 1 PM peak lunch hour for office workers on weekdays). Otherwise, you could try Brandy Ho’s http://sanfrancisco.citysearch.com/profile/917666/ . Or you could just walk dwon Stockton St. in Chinatown or Clement St. between 3rd and 10th Avenues in the Richmond District and pick a place that looks good–both streets are lined with them.

For Italian, you could similarly walk down Columbus Ave. in North Beach, but Delfina in the Mission/Castro area is popular: http://sanfrancisco.citysearch.com/profile/889376/san_francisco_ca/delfina.html . Or, for a funkier experience, a lot of people seem to like Buca di Bepo though I think that’s actually part of a small chain: http://www.bucadibeppo.com/loc_details.asp?ID=0502 .

Thai is harder because there are literally good Thai places all over town and it’s hard to recommend one. Two that get national attention and deserve it at Khan Toke ( http://www.sanfranciscovisitor.com/khantoke.htm ) and Manora’s ( http://sanfrancisco.citysearch.com/profile/868273 ) but I personally like the food at the fairly unknown (except to locals) Khun Phoa in the Castro (there are 2, one just off Castro on 18th, one just off Castro on Market, but the latter has recently cut back it’s hours: http://sanfrancisco.citysearch.com/profile/899001/ ).

To get good soul food, you might have to go to Oakland, but in SF there’s PJ’s (not really soul, more c,20,150786.002,1,20349,69.3.235.20
150787,150786,150786,2005-07-17 12:39:53,RE: San Francisco/Mill Valley CA”